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[livejournal.com profile] trollprincess is right. These people are on crack:
Clive Staples Lewis has been perhaps the single most useful tool of Satan since his appearance in the Christian community sometime around World War II.
Read their illuminating analysis of the unspeakable Satanic evil that is the Narnian stories here. [Warning: those of you who have to worry about worksafe, your software may not allow you to go to this site because of the rather amazingly lurid speculation about the sexual meanings of the scenes C.S. Lewis wrote about Bacchus and Silenus. They mark that section for 18 and over.]

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 10:37 am (UTC)
ext_5285: (Default)
From: [identity profile] kiwiria.livejournal.com
This is utterly ludicrous.

They are indeed on crack. Most of the arguments don't even make sense, and the ones that do are based on (at best) faulty interpretation of the Bible, the Narnia series, or both!

I would send an email shooting through his arguments, but I couldn't stomach reading all of it, and anyway, I doubt he'd listen. People who put up websites like that are not interested in debates, but only to get their view point out there.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalquessa.livejournal.com
I was impressed by how little his arguments or the scriptures quoted had to do with whatever facet of Lewis's life was being denounced. For instance the section (near the top, because like you I could not bring myself to read the entire thing) where a friend of Lewis's is quoted as saying that his conversion was not brought about by a conviction of sin. This is apparently misread by the article's author to mean that Lewis felt no conviction of sin whatsoever and is therefor followed by four or five quotations of scripture about how man cannot be saved unless he realizes that he is guilty of sin.

*is baffled*

This reminded me of when I used to teacher aid: The Christian schools did not allow holiday decorations including Santa Claus because he was assumed to be some kind of non-believer demi-god or something (they never used those words, but to hear them talk about the negative ideals that Santa represented they might as well). Meanwhile the public schools (who apparently at least googled Mr. Claus first before deciding whether or not to sanction him) did not allow Santa Claus either because he was a Christian symbol, and they didn't want to exclude members of other faiths.

*sigh*

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
Wow. That's some great crack they have. And, finally, I can use my Aslan icon!

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 07:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
*DIES AT YOUR ICON*

I've actually always been amused by the "Narnia is Christian" assumption. Objectively, Christianity is a redemption myth. Narnia is also a redemption myth, now with 84% more heresies than standard size redemption myth! Also contains lanolin (just boil up Mr Tumnus).

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 01:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackiejj.livejournal.com
Oh, for Heaven's sake!

And on the news, just last night:

"An Indiana pet shop owner says a turtle that was the only animal to survive an October fire has developed an image of Satan’s face on its shell.

"Bryan Dora says it looks like the devil wants us to know that he was there.

"Dora says he can see a goatee and a pair of pointy horns on the shell of the palm-sized red-eared slider turtle named Lucky."

I saw Dora. He was very grim. He said, "Wherever there's a fire, Satan has to leave his mark somewhere."


(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com
These are the same sort of people who think that Madeleine L'Engle is a Satanic writer.

They don't like Anglicans -- especially high-church Anglicans -- because they're the next thing to actually being Catholic, and they don't like Catholics because the Catholic church is the Whore of Babylon.

They are indeed on crack.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] psychic-serpent.livejournal.com
These are the same sort of people who think that Madeleine L'Engle is a Satanic writer.

Yeah, Madeleine L'Engle is Satanic the way Bill O'Reilly is a Liberal. :: rolleyes :: That's why, on "low" Sunday (the week after Easter) my church's Sunday school is doing L'Engle's play based on the Jonah story from the Bible. (It's rather long but they received permission from L'Engle's "people" to edit it down for time.)

It is clear that this nonsense is anti-Catholic? I thought JRR Tolkien was supposed to be the darling of conservative Christians. (And I used to think CS Lewis was considered right up there with Tolkien in their estimation, but I was evidently wrong.)

This is the sort of nonsense that allows Tim LeHaye to be called an "author." :: shudder ::

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 03:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com
These people are to ordinary conservative Christians as gun-toting survivalist militia members living in North Dakota wilderness compound are to old-style Rockefeller Republicans.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 08:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalquessa.livejournal.com
Yes, we Anglicans are the Epitome of Evil. We have funny robes and occasionally sing an anthem on Latin. No doubt we are secretly planning to take over the world and make everyone genuflect before they sit down in church. (Although, if there are any super seekrit world-domination meetings going on, they must take place at the same time as choir practice, because I've never been invited)

I have gotten used to announcing "These people do not represent me!" a lot.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
...I have never genuflected in a Church of England church.

(Also, just imagine: the Anglican Conspiracy and the Gay Agenda combined. The super-sekrit plans to take over the world!)

I was raised Baptist...

Date: 2005-03-19 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] huladavid.livejournal.com
...and one Sunday about 15 years ago I went to an Anglican service with a guy I was seeing at the time. I dunno if it was a high, middle, or low church, but I nearly jummmped outta my seat. (Kept expecting balloons, like in the Macy's Thanksgiving parade during the processional...)

Re: I was raised Baptist...

Date: 2005-03-19 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coalboy.livejournal.com
If it was Palm Sunday, even low church has processions. I'm Episcopalian, sort of middle church but like high church music.

Re: I was raised Baptist...

Date: 2005-03-19 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonquil.livejournal.com
In some Episcopal churches, on Pentecost you'd have been right...

Re: I was raised Baptist...

Date: 2005-03-19 06:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malkingrey.livejournal.com
If they had incense, and/or if the celebrant chanted all or part of the service, it was probably high church. ("Bells and smells", as the phrase goes. Extra points for lots of stained glass, and for colorful vestments -- possibilities include white&gold, red, purple, and green, depending upon the season.)

And balloons would not have been completely unlikely. I remember one Easter Sunday, at the Episcopal church I attended during graduate school . . . the decorations for the day included bunches of white and yellow balloons (those being the appropriate colors) tied to all the pews. That was also the day when the campus cops showed up and started towing all the cars that were parked improperly -- the church lot itself being full -- whereupon a delegation from St. Mary's went out to speak reason to them, said delegation comprising one of the co-celebrants, wearing a full set of 19th-century high-church vestments dating from the days when St. Mary's was a posh society parish, one of the choir members in her choir robe, and the head of the vestry wearing (because it was Easter) his Sunday-best embroidered hippie shirt.

Faced with all that sartorial and liturgical splendor, the cops withdrew.

Re: I was raised Baptist...

Date: 2005-03-19 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalquessa.livejournal.com
Faced with all that sartorial and liturgical splendor, the cops withdrew.

*snerk* That is beautiful!

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 02:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skylarker.livejournal.com
What a load of vitriol. There are so many holes in that logic you could use it for a fish-net.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 02:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] king-tirian.livejournal.com
The attack on Lewis' character and the nature of his conversion is kookish and tacky, and describing "Mere Christianity" as a heresy seems to me to be willful indifference to the words on the page. Let's not be too hard on it, though. As someone who once put Turkish Delight into his mouth expecting a pleasure worth betraying Narnia, I appreciate the imagery that Edmund's sample might have been laced with hashish. :)

Still, the argument that Aslanism is crucially different from Christianity is somewhat sound and perhaps underreported. I'm surprised that the author didn't get around to the heresy that actually bothers me, which is the Calormene who is welcomed into Heaven on the grounds that a noble deed done in the name of a false god is good enough for the true God. It's a sweet notion and one that keeps Aslan from looking like merciless during the Apocalypse, but it's completely opposed to what Jesus was talking about. I'm not an evangelical Christian with my eye on the number of souls I've converted, but if I were I can well imagine that this popularism would stick in my craw.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 07:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
Heh. Above, I said Narnia is also a redemption myth, now with 84% more heresies than standard size redemption myth! without even having read your comment!

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] king-tirian.livejournal.com
The man gives great myth, there's no doubt about it. I really should have put "heresy" in quotes, since Lewis isn't saying that God will use the same admission standards as Aslan, and only rubs up against the idea that Narnian Heaven is the same place as "Earth Heaven".

We must remain steadfast against our common enemy -- those baby-eating father-raping fiends who are publishing the collected Chronicles with the books numbered IN THE WRONG ORDER! When you put The Magician's Nephew first, it makes Baby Jesus cry.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] folk.livejournal.com
Not only does the Baby Jesus cry, but God also kills a kitten.

Brethren, be sober, be vigilant; for your adversary the literary revisionist goeth about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom resist, steadfast, in the faith.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-20 06:47 pm (UTC)
naomikritzer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] naomikritzer
As someone who once put Turkish Delight into his mouth expecting a pleasure worth betraying Narnia, I appreciate the imagery that Edmund's sample might have been laced with hashish. :)

Right. There. With you. I was so disappointed by Turkish Delight. I'd expected something at least as good as chocolate, and it turned out to taste really not even as good as jelly beans, which I was not especially fond of.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-23 06:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] whapnoggin.livejournal.com
Did you have the fruit kind, or the fruit-flavored jelly kind?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 02:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roadnotes.livejournal.com
That's some... impressive reasoning.

You know, if I were absolutely positive it would wear off in a few hours, and if I were in a safe place (no internet access, for one thing), I'd love to try some of what they're smoking. Just one hit. Once.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 07:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dejaspirit.livejournal.com
Thinking like that is less scary than actually, you know thinking. Most hard right closed minded people I've met are like that because they feel more secure in their world if they pretend that they have God's cell phone number. It makes life easier for them. They always have an answer and they are always, always sanctioned by God, Jeebus, or whoever to believe the way they do. I've always compared it to pretending to be insane because you have no responsibilities anymore.

But you know that already...so...

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 02:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixelfish.livejournal.com
Imagine what they'd do if they read The Screwtape Letters. Lewis said somewhere that it wasn't very long simply because he couldn't stand writing in the Screwtape personality as it made him feel kind of squicky. (My words, not his, obviously.)



Actually, since I was raised Mormon, the "heresy" which so bothers King Tirian never bothered me, since one of the Mormon prophets once said that anything truly good came of God, our Heavenly Father, and I often drew a line connecting the two statements in my head.

I'm not sure how such an idea was really opposed to what Jesus was talking about....after all, the idea seems to be that as long as the Calormene had no idea that Aslan existed, he dedicated his noble works to the god he had been raised to believe in, and he lived a good life. He was prepared, therefore, to recognise Aslan for the real deal and forsake Tash as a god. The story of Emeth the Calormene isn't a blanket coupon for saying that you can do good deeds for an unworthy cause, but rather saying that truly good people who have been unexposed to the true god will recognise him and have already been worshipping them in their hearts. They will THEN forsake the less worthy god or cause they had been serving.

(Notice that Tash technically is a god, and has the powers of a deity in the book. He's not a nice god, certainly, but he is a god. Is it the polytheism that bothers?)


Side note: While my analysis is somewhat rooted in my theological background, and presupposes a belief in a God, I am only writing that way, because Lewis honestly believed in God, and I was trying to explain why I didn't think the story of Emeth was a heresy or oppositional to Jesus's teachings. (Myself, I am now an agnostic Zen Buddhist....kind of.)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 04:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] king-tirian.livejournal.com
Huh. I wonder if they don't see eye-to-eye with Lewis on Screwtape. Their heads would explode if they read The Great Divorce or That Hideous Strength, though.

(Aside: it is SUCH a shame that TGD doesn't have the exposure that Screwtape does. Much MUCH better writing and I think a far more interesting premise. And even shorter, which Lewis thought was a reason that TSL was such a hit. Lewis' best work of fiction -- Matthew Bob sez check it out!)

I guess I'll just point to http://www.lccs.edu/~jsennett/lewis.htm as being far more lucid on the subject than I could hope to be. I'm just not personally conviced (much as I would like to be) that Scriptural statements like John 3:18 and John 14:6 allow us the luxury of accepting Christan inclusivism even though the converse is rather appalling.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 05:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pixelfish.livejournal.com
The Great Divorce gets quoted by minor Mormon leaders a lot too. My first exposure to it was when a church meeting speaker described the passage where the man pulls the lizard (his particular sins) off of his shoulder, forsakes it, and a beautiful horse arises from the body of the dead lizard so that the man can then ride into heaven on it. It was a talk on forsaking sin and the repentence process. It sufficiently piqued my interest at the time, and I immediately sought it out.

The scriptures you quoted (or at least the versions that I saw) regarding the idea of Christian inclusivity seem to imply that the only way to God is through Christ....but that doesn't necessarily seem to preclude the idea that somebody could come to Christ after a lifetime of goodworks dedicated ostensibly to other gods.

Just a question: How much of the Bible do you believe is inerrant? And how much do you believe could have been changed through translations, simple omission, historical shift, etc? How absolute are these statements?

(Sorry in advance if I don't get back to this later to clarify and discuss this more. I'd like to, but I'm about to move from one coast to the next. As in, tomorrow. Wheee!)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aranel.livejournal.com
Amusingly, I cannot even follow the link--filtering software is blocking it for 'sexual acts/text.' If it's the site I think it is, though, yeah, it's ludicrous. This guy is no doubt of the hardcore Calvinist variety that thinks only he and his five kids and his wife are predestined to salvation, and he's not so sure about his wife.

No doubt he also likes his lions declawed and caged.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jonquil.livejournal.com
Oh, I love that site. One of my favorite bits is that of course Lewis isn't a Christian, because he (gasp) Smoked A Pipe.

p. 60 "He...lit his pipe. Marshwiggles smoke a very strange, heavy sort of tobacco (some people say they mix it with mud) and the children noticed the smoke from Puddleglum's pipe hardly rose in the air at all. It trickled out of the bowl and downwards and drifted along the ground like a mist. It was very black and set Scrubb coughing." (Now this is a strange description. I am suspicious that it could be a description of some kind of drug or other. If someone knows what this "tobacco" might really be, please send email. Also, we see that smoking makes people cough, which is accurate enough. But this is also quite a description.)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 08:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kalquessa.livejournal.com
Yes, I have been informed on more than one occasion that I cannot possibly be truly saved because I drink a glass of wine with my dinner fairly often and even indulge in the occasional cigar or pipe. Also, apparently the translators of pretty much every well-known version of the Bible got it wrong: Jesus did not turn the water into wine, it was un-fermented grape juice.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 05:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] klostes.livejournal.com
You know, I used to buy homeschool materials from folks like this. They had the best engineering toys and logic games and puzzles, but their attitude towards "fiction" and "fantasy" finally go to me.

Even when I was a fundamentalist, at least I wasn't THIS far out. And unfortunately, these are the sorts of folks that many Americans see as defining what a "christian" is in our country today. (And for them, the lowercase 'c' is intentional.)

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 05:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] baylorsr.livejournal.com
I guess that between having read the Narnia and the Harry Potter books, I'm beyond redemption.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] callunav.livejournal.com
But did you inhale *like* them?

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] baka-kit.livejournal.com
Crack, crack, crack, crackitty crack, crack, crack.

The kind that's mixed with pot, I think.

I especially loved the part where writing allegory is bad, cuz it means you're ashamed of the gospel. *boggles*

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-19 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] callunav.livejournal.com
I was so baffled and incredulous, having been raised agnostic/atheist, when I first began to understand that Christians who are prone to denouncing people tend to be far more vicious to other devout Christians (of other denominations or differing interpretations of their faith) than they are to those who are not Christian at all.

I wonder if that's true of all bigotries.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-03-21 05:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] romancoat.livejournal.com
And to think that just a couple of days ago, I was discussing the Narnia books with a friend of mine, and we both felt that while the books were good reading when we were thirteen, at twenty-six, we're a little annoyed with the overt Christian/Catholic messaging in "The Last Battle." Still like the series overall, but we tend to avoid re-reading that particular book. Weird to see that some people out there perceive the series to be anti-Christian!

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